• Announcements

    • eel man

      Surfcaster's 2016 Reboot!   09/21/2016

      Howdy, folks. I know this is way overdue, and the damage is probably already done, but after weeks of working with the database I've finally wiped out all of the spam posts and topics. This was no easy task, considering there were three-quarters of a million bogus posts and nearly three hundred thousand bogus topics. Once a hacker/spammer network finds a vulnerability, they send out automated programs that basically destroy a database like this. Over the past couple weeks I've migrated all of the good data into a more current, secure platform with the hopes that we can somehow rebuild. New member registration is tightened way up, and a third-party spam monitoring service is in place. I've also invested in an awesome new gallery extension,  allowing members to create, manage, and share image galleries. Please give it a try, and let me know if there are any issues. I'm still testing and working out the bugs. Surfcaster's forums were once an amazing resource for everyone to enjoy, and we're hoping it can once again build back up. The main site (non-forums) is pretty banged up, but once the forums are complete my next task is to re-invent that as well. Spread the word. Hope to see a lot of you back! Cheers, Andrew
BMunson

Recreational vs. Commercial value

14 posts in this topic

I generally don't take the time to re-enter items from publications unless I think there is a major point to be illustrated.

Some of us have continually argued that there is large differential value to our regional economies in favor of recreational fisheries. I believe "Stripers Forever" is conducting a study of the recreational value of striped bass.

Herring, as a important forage fish to many recreational target species here in the NE, continues to be managed by Mass. fisheries managers and federal managers as if herring are more valuable as a single species commercial harvest.

Here is an article from Sport Fishing magazine which illustrates that recreational anglers in Australia are confronting the same problems.

-------------------------------------------

Sport Fishing Magazine, April 2005, p.12

Economic Study Justifies Game-Fish Status for Marlin

(picture caption: Stripes’ commercial-to-recreational value economic value comes in at a 1-26 ration)

In Australia, New South Wales’ Fishery Minister Iam Macdonald “has caved in to commercial fishing pressure by not acting to fully protect striped marlin,” according to Jim Harnwell, editor of “Fishing World” magazine (www.yaffa.com.au/fw). That must mean that striped marlin are much more valuable commercially than recreationally (the latter of course releasing most of the marlin caught; the former killing most).

Well, not exactly.

A recent economic study titled “The Economic Impact of the Striped Marlin Fishery,” by the respected, independent, international accounting firm Ernst and Young, estimated the commercial value of the species to the state’s economy at less than $7 million and the recreational value at more than $183 million. Put another way, for each dollar a striped marlin brings commercially, it’s worth $26 recreationally.

That disparity hardly came as a shock to those in the recreational fishing community, especially since similar studies of the value of major gamefish in the United States and elsewhere generally draw similar results. But with the Ernst and Young confirmation, says Harnwell, “Anglers are pushing for a total ban on the commercial sales of all billfish in New South Wales ports.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a member of Stripers Forever, but only because they kinda tricked me into joining last year at the Rhode Island fishing show, I don't agree with all there practices. I am not sure what there main goal is even though they say it is to make striped bass a game fish. they just seem kinda shady to me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone really think Stripers Forever will be satisfied to make Striped Bass a gamefish? Think on that and, consider the background of the two principals of the organization.

Brad Burns is a fly fisherman, having written a number of books and articles about fly fishing and given a number of seminars about fly fishing for Stripers.

Ed Mitchell is a fly fisherman, he has written a number of books and articles about fly fishing and given hundred's of seminars about fly fishing for Stripers.

If you have been to a seminar or read a book by either one; do you recall anything being said or written about bait fishing, plugging or anything other than flyfishing for Striped Bass? Of course not!

Most of vocal googans who support Brad and Ed are wannabee fly fishermen.

Next time you attend a seminar by either one, ask him when was the last time he testified on any Striped Bass management issue before the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission or their Striped Bass Management Board. Believe me, it's been years, if ever. They have a great thing going. The sit back and collect $$$ from average fishermen to support their web site,etc. and generate "issues" for them to write about in their books and articles about fly fishing.

Who's kidding who? There are a lot of organizations out there who support all of us and all of our preferred methods of fishing. SF is not one of them. Never has been and I doubt it ever will be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi TBob,

You know that I respect everybody's opinion on the message boards. If we all thought the same way this would simply be an "information board".

I also belong to Stripers Forever. I also belong to RFA, and NCMC. I'm considering joining CCA. I've reapplied to be on the Recreational Advisory Panel to the NEFMC and served "my time" on the Ecosystem Alteration Working Group for Stellwagen Sanctuary.

It took me several years of daily involvement with recreational fishing management issues to realize just how political the processes have become. That is the portion which I really detest. I admit it, I simply want to go fishing. We are confronted with so many political issues during our daily lives that sometimes when we perceive that a group is using political processes to gain their stated goals, it get's us mad. I've been there and am still there. Unfortunately this is all about the politics rather than the science. Maybe that will change someday.

RFA is a lobbying group which has made it clear that they are fighting within the halls of Congress. It seems that NCMC, thru their president Ken Hinman, tries to work thru the Fisheries Management Councils and other management entities by presenting the science and then trying to line up majority support for conservation approaches to fisheries management. CCA, as I understand it, was a big force behind the constitutational amendment in Florida for the inshore net ban, that waas quite political. Right now I believe CCA is pushing a "boat limit" for permit and pampano in the Keys. (I'm struggling with this one because I'm not sure how I feel yet about recreational boat limits vs angler bag limits.)

I too have perceived a problem with Stripers Forever. Personally I think it is because we are not really sure whether they are simply so pro recreational that they want commercial fishing on stripers to stop completely, OR whether they are so concerned about the stocks of stripers that they think gamefish status is the only tool which will allow proper management of that species. They seem to be using every political and economic tool they can think of, including a study of the economic value of each lb of striped bass to each state on the seacoast. That may make Stripers Forever a bit "cagey" or "shady" as you say.

During the Amendment 13 process, I was on the RAP and I voted for a recommendation that would have fostered a "free" (nothing is really free, chuckle) recreational saltwater permit. I did this for two reasons: First I hoped it would tighten up on the accuracy of the MRFSS data because we are being managed by the incredibly sloppy data from the MRFSS system. Second, and most important, I believed, and still do, that recreational fisherman "out capitalize" and represent more "votes at the polls" than the commercial fishing industry. The only way to prove this is to get a real list and then to use the totals to bend a few political ears. The commercial men have consistently opposed a recreational fishing permit not because they give a damn about us and our freedom, but because (I think) they don't want the politicians to know, nor do they want US to know, the political power we could exert if we are really feel pushed against the wall by the commercial dominance of fisheries management.

During the recreational public hearings on Amendment 13, I saw that the power of emotions against having a recreational permit were stronger than the perception of a permit's use as a political tool. In fact, recreationals want to fish and not to bring the politics into their ventures onto the salt. Lord knows we deal with business politics all week.

So I appreciate your comments about Stripers Forever. Their goal sounds good, but we can't quite get a handle on how they are trying to do it. Makes it all seem shady. Too bad eh?

I'm hoping the ocean water temperature up here increases so the baitfish will come in and I can concentrate on filleting fish, making chowder, and getting ready to go out fishing again, rather than ranting on the message boards.

Bruce

fishing ..... fishing .... fishing .... eat.... sleep.... fishing....fishing.... fishing... fishing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

====================================

Onshore wrote:

If you have been to a seminar or read a book by either one; do you recall anything being said or written about bait fishing, plugging or anything other than flyfishing for Striped Bass? Of course not!

====================================

Onshore, as usual, you nailed it. I'm a board member of Stripers Forever so I know what you wrote is true. *

Brad did once speak about baitfishing in The Striped Bass Chronicles. But you'll be hard pressed to find those comments in print today.

http://www.basspond.com/articles/general/burns_sws.shtml

This link below compliments the one above. What is it about flyfishermen that makes them think they are so better than everyone else? Everyone I know just fishes and has fun and doesn't frown on what others prefer to fish with - be it flesh or feathers or something else.

http://www.basspond.com/articles/general/c...lies_only.shtml

Bruce, I have the highest respect for you, be careful in supporting SF or CCA. When you look under the hood, there is very little merit to any of their arguments. They are masters of misinformation. Ask yourself how an organization like CCA can claim it had 900 members in Mass 2 years ago - and now that chapter has folded. Pullease!

Bruce SF stopped returning my messages a while ago. With regard to the study that SF is paying for to demonstrate that the value of the striper fishery clearly rests with the recreational sector, please pass along to Brad the following - NO KIDDING

This is no secret and Paul Diodati has stated this numerous times at striper hearings. SF would know that if they ever weighed in on their issues a Mass hearing. They don't dare though because their arguments fall apart when a 2-way discussion is allowed.

Ask yourself, why does a free org need a Treasurer anyway? B) Before you or anyone else decide to give money to this group, ask yourself, do you think they would make the best use of your hard earned dollars.

Best,

Mike

* No, I am not a member of the Stripers Forever board. But how would you know? They are not listed on their website (yet I keep seeing folks on fishing websites claiming to be on their board). I find this more than little troubling but not unexpected from an org with so much to hide. Any properly run organization (especially a web based one) would make such information available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not equate CCA with Stripers Forever. In Maine and in New Hampshire, CCA has done much to improve the lot of the Saltwater Fisherman; including purchasing public access, coastal stream reclamation, dam removal and much, much more. In those states, they are representative of all types of fishermen and all methods of fishing.

CCA-MA and CCA-CT tried to become fly-fishing organizations and ingnored what most saltwater sportsmen practiced. Now, they are defunct. Look at their web sites. They have no local leadership and all inquiries are referred to Houston.

In the mid-Atlantic and the South CCA is the largest saltwater sportsmans organization; promoting all types of fishing.

Stripers Forever, however, is promoting the very narrow agenda of its' founding directors; which is fly fishing only. Has anyone ever been invited to one of their meetings or board meetings? If so, let's here from you. Everyone else seems to be suspect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is all incredible stuff.. Thanks gentlemen for writing it here. That's the great thing about a message board. I come away just a little more educated with each thread. (not necessarily more intelligent though LOL).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Who's kidding who? There are a lot of organizations out there who support all of us and all of our preferred methods of fishing.

To Anyone:

If I may be so bold, it would help a lot if folks who feel this way would support those groups back.

Whichever group(s) that may be.

As you might expect, recreational fishing is called recreational fishing for a reason. The last thing most rec folks want to do is get involved in heavy duty fishing politics. However, there are no shortage of heavy duty opinions on the internet.

If you think there is a group out there that you might identify with, then join it and help it by truly getting involved.

What good is it for the leader of a group to get up and say he is representing "X hundred" number of recreational anglers, when he is the only one there who really cares enough to show up?

Best,

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amen to that Mike. If we don't join together for the issues we care about, we risk losing many of our fishing privilages.

post-8-1112797151_thumb.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just re-read this entire thread, including the links from Mike.

I remain amazed that I had never picked-up on the extreme bias of "Stripers Forever."

Admittedly, I am a meat fisherman. Fresh caught fish are a delicassy. My self image does not include being a troll or an orc. (chuckle)

As my reappointment to the Recreational Advisory Panel for another 3 years has just come thru, I just want everyone to know that I am not a troll or an orc. All recreational styles are great. We gravitate toward the one which suits each of us best.

My interest is in being sure that recreational fishing as an activity is regulated fairly and that the stocks of fish AND their habitats are managed properly.

Thanks for all your comments on SF. What an eye-opener!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's interesting to note here that Virginia recreational anglers exceeded their Striped Bass quota for for Chesapeake Bay in 2004 by 1,000,000 lbs.according to Virginia VMRC. This was the second year in a row the Bay quota was exceeded. Because of that, they will be required to cut back during 2005 through an increased length limit, decreased bag limit, shorter season or a combination of all three.

I believe the state has a seperate quota for fish caught outside the Bay in the Atlantic and that, apparently, was not exceeded.

More information from: www.mrc.state.va.us.

It will be interesting to see if SF has any comment on this. Probably not, because it didn't involve the commercial sector. But that is 1,000,000 lbs. of illegal dead bass using the 8% mortality figure.

I doubt they will as they seem only to care about perceived commercial excesses.[/b]

post-8-1113865817_thumb.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to post this this is something I do agree with

and think that the state is doing us as recs. wrong. They

are not thinking about the long term goal of the Striped

Bass. just like politics it's all about the money

Stripers Forever –

The Massachusetts Division of Marine Fisheries has set the following new

regulations for the 2005 commercial striped bass season.

“Commercial striped bass fishery rules (322 CMR 6.07)regarding daily catch

limits, season start date, and dealer requirements for imported fish, were

amended. The four-day fishing week, (formerly Sunday through Wednesday)

was shifted to Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. The daily catch

limit on Sunday was reduced to five fish but remains at 30 fish during

Tuesday through Thursday. No-fishing days will be Monday, Fridays, &

Saturdays. The commercial fishery

will open on Tuesday, July 12th. Dealers will be

allowed to import documented (tagged) non-conforming (legally caught in

the state of origin but < 34_)whole striped bass prior to the July 12

season opening and again beginning five days after the close of the

season. During the commercial season (and five days following the closure)

all bass in the possession of dealers must meet the Commonwealth_s 34_

minimum size.

Stripers Forever feels that these regulations are neither in the best

interest of the resource, the consumers, or the fishery in general”.

Stripers Forever Comments

a. The five fish bag limit on Sunday is blatantly designed to give

recreational anglers who sell their catch one weekend day to sell enough

stripers to pay for gas and fishing expenses. This is not a legitimate

commercial fishery.

b. By shutting off the fishery on Thursday it is guaranteed that weekend

consumers and restaurant customers will be eating fish – unless taken

illegally – that are at least two days old. This proves the regulation is

written to benefit commercial fishermen rather than consumers.

c. The cutback in fishing days per week is sure to extend the season as

the division wants, but it will also prolong the period when people will

have legal cover to transport commercial quantities of bass either for

personal use or to sell under the table as is commonly reported. Combined

with the reduction from 40 to 30 fish per day – never mind to 5 on Sunday

- it will also encourage high-grading – the act of throwing away already

killed smaller but legal fish in order to keep larger ones.

d. The discrimination against recreational anglers is clearly framed in

the move to allow wild, school-sized striped bass to be legally sold in

MA. The exact same 22-inch fish that must be released by an angler in MA

can be gillnetted in Chesapeake Bay and then purchased by anyone after it

is shipped back to MA a few days later.

Stripers Forever has constantly stated that the recreational community is

forced to live with high minimum size regulations – that also puts undue

pressure on the breeding stock - in order to reserve fish for a commercial

quota, and this is just another illustration of that point and the

injustice that it represents.

Stripers Forever wrote the governor and copied the Division of Marine

resources with a letter posted to our website on 4/7/05. The post to our

website also listed addresses to send your letters and/or e-mails.

Everything that you need to let your feelings be known to the policy

makers is included in that post. We urge our members to let those

contacts in MA know how unhappy we are with the continued existence of

commercial striped bass fishing in Massachusetts and policies like these

that benefit a few at the expense of many.

Brad Burns “Make IT A Gamefish”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tattoo Bob,

Thanks for posting. SF's comments are in italics and mine follow each point...

a. The five fish bag limit on Sunday is blatantly designed to give

recreational anglers who sell their catch one weekend day to sell enough

stripers to pay for gas and fishing expenses. This is not a legitimate

commercial fishery.

I disagree. I think that the DMF noticed that the vast majority of SB landings were on Sundays so they cut it back (instead of eliminating Sundays which is what I personally would have preferred). This should result is less market glut and higher prices paid to Massachusetts commercial fishermen. At least that is the goal which I feel is both a reasonable and responsible position for MA officials.

SF is bleeding from their eyes with rage over this because their whole argument rests on the fact that currently comm striped bass anglers are making squat on the fishery - so why allow it in their eyes. Anything that increases the value of the commercial fishery is good for Massachusetts and bad for Stripers Forever.

Note, the increased value in the comm fishery will NOT be at the expense of anyone in the rec fishery. That is win/win to me.

b. By shutting off the fishery on Thursday it is guaranteed that weekend

consumers and restaurant customers will be eating fish – unless taken

illegally – that are at least two days old. This proves the regulation is

written to benefit commercial fishermen rather than consumers.

Would SF prefer it if the comm effort was allowed all weekend in order to compete with recs for the same spots and fish?

c. The cutback in fishing days per week is sure to extend the season as

the division wants, but it will also prolong the period when people will

have legal cover to transport commercial quantities of bass either for

personal use or to sell under the table as is commonly reported. Combined

with the reduction from 40 to 30 fish per day – never mind to 5 on Sunday

- it will also encourage high-grading – the act of throwing away already

killed smaller but legal fish in order to keep larger ones.

Geeze. I wonder how bad the the high grading situation must be when it comes to recreational fishing considering we are only allowed 2.

Come on. Let's get real.

d. The discrimination against recreational anglers is clearly framed in

the move to allow wild, school-sized striped bass to be legally sold in

MA. The exact same 22-inch fish that must be released by an angler in MA

can be gillnetted in Chesapeake Bay and then purchased by anyone after it

is shipped back to MA a few days later.

Sorry. I don't know enough about the striped bass gill net fishery in other states to comment on it. Comm fishing for stripers in MA is ONLY allowed by rod/reel.

Stripers Forever has constantly stated that the recreational community is

forced to live with high minimum size regulations – that also puts undue

pressure on the breeding stock - in order to reserve fish for a commercial

quota, and this is just another illustration of that point and the

injustice that it represents.

Again, SF repeatedly makes the case that folks should be allowed to take baby stripers that have never spawned even once. We did that back in the '60s Brad, and look where it got us.

I hope that folks are finally starting to see what this group is really all about.

Unreal,

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was at the NE Saltwater Flyrodders fundraiser in Bradford last night and they had a Stripers Forever Board Member who gave a pitch for joining SF.

I asked him how come SF hasn't said word one about Virginia overfishing it's Chesapeake Bay recreational quota by 1,000,000 lbs. His answer was," Huh ! I don't know anything about that "

So much for the self-appointed guardians of the species.

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now